Brake Linings revisited

[Brian T]

There was a discussion on FordBarn regarding brake fade , there were many causes discussed , I mentioned that mismatching the linings (woven with cast drums) and (bonded with steel drums) can cause brake fade , it seems that nobody had ever heard of this and have in fact used the combinations above with no problems .
So does anyone have any real life experience with this or some scientific information that supports this theory?
Brian T.

[E.Moore]

I have personal experience with this issue and lots of time spent researching the causes of the problems.

Do what you want, but don't complain when you have trouble.

[Brian T]

Hello Eric,
This as nothing to do with what I want , I myself are following the recommendations on this forum , I was hoping that somebody may have been able to explain the reasons why , I guess not --- However there comments can be seen on Ford Barn in yesterday’s postings.
Brian T.

[Matt Kroll]

In my opinion, fade isn't the problem. I saw the comments on Ford Barn regarding the use of woven linings with cast iron drums, but not many comments regarding first hand experience with bonded non-woven linings with steel drums. My metallurgy experience tells me that virtually any brake lining material is compatible with cast iron drums. Cast iron is pretty hard, but not very tough - relatively speaking. But I would never use anything except the woven linings with the steel drums, especially not the modern ceramic lining material. Steel is tough, but relatively soft. The steel drums are burnished, which creates a smooth finish which is only slightly harder than the base steel material. The modern lining material is quite hard. It will cut through the burnished finish in no time. Considering that the steel drums can't be turned, you'll find yourself in quite a predicament in a relatively short period of time. In addition, if you have the steel drums, use the woven linings. They dissipate heat and gasses better than the non-woven type, and they work beautifully! The stopping power of the woven/steel combination is quite surprising!

[Brian T]

Thank you Matt,
Now we know why, instead of (just because), I had no way to explain my comments , although I have experience with modern brake systems and have seen what some pad material will or will not do in some braking situations. Matt would you mind if I quote you on Ford Barn?)
Brian T.

[Matt Kroll]

Thank you Matt,
. Matt would you mind if I quote you on Ford Barn?)
Brian T.

I'm by no means an expert, but feel free to quote me just the same.

[31syraNY]

Hi Brian

I had brake issues a month or so ago and posted looking for direction. My truck had woven when I started my restoration, so it got new woven and turned drums. The drums are steel ! I took those drums off three different time before posting my cry for help. I spoke to a neighbor who works on school buses and he gave me a name of a old time brake man (hooked to a oxygen tank) that told me to take them apart again and bring everything to him, he said my wooven is correct and pads are tight, no rivet issues, he then began measuring the thickness at points on both shoes and comparing the wear...(I believe the difference in thickness was only .004) .....the advice from him was in my case was to flip the shoes over so that the top pad became bottom and bottom became top and adjust the brake wedges to increase contact on the drums. Now that I have done this the noise is very rare ......the truck now has 1400 miles since the brakes were changed in the restoration. One other fact that may have something to do with my problem is I'am 6'5" and have a hard time manuvering to apply the brake and clutch, I have everything set low to compensate for my riding the pedal. I'am probably my own worst enemy LOL who knows but thats my story and the brakes work great and are quiet.............

[E.Moore]

Matt, That was a very good explanation of the use of bonded shoes and woven shoes on steel drums.

[modeleh]

Interesting thread, always learning from you guys, perhaps someone can carry on with the schooling.
Did Ford supply these trucks with steel or cast drums? Or is one type a jobber replacement that found its way onto the trucks? How can one tell what you've got? I guess it's possible some of these old relics could have a cast one on one side and a steel one on the other?

[Chris Haynes]

I have a set of '32/'33 cast iron drums I am going to put on my '30. Hopefully no major problems will arise.

[E.Moore]

From what I understand, Ford sold all the AA trucks with steel drums, since all of A & AA production used woven linings. When the A/AA went out of production, the dealers continued to sell the steel drums until supplies were exhausted.

Bonded shoes began to appear in the mid 30's along with the cast iron drums, but there was little or no information given to dealers or independent mechanics regarding the use of woven material on cast iron or bonded material on steel drums.

It is very possible to have a steel drum on one side and steel on the other.

Identification of the steel and cast iron is easy once the two are side by side. Generally, the cast iron drums are thicker, because they wear faster. Woven shoes on cast iron drums will wear much faster than they wear against steel drums.

[russ]

Is faster than normal wear the only consequense of woven on cast?

[E.Moore]

Yes. But why go through the misery of prematurely wearing out the woven lining, then have to pull the wheels and drums, especially the rear drums to reline the brakes when one can get the AA shoes relined with bonded material and experience normal wear. I'm going to see if I can take some photos of cast iron and steel drums for all to see the differences. There are probably more examples of drums than I have, but the photos will get a start on it.

[russ]

Fair enough. Those here who've had the opportunity to drive their trucks a lot, what is considered normal life for properly matched shoes and drums? 10,000 miles? 20,000?

[E.Moore]

Here are a few brake drum examples. The easiest way to quiclly tell the cast iron from the steel drums is that the smooth cast iron drums all have one or two raised square blocks in the casting at the flange.

Cast iron drums sometimes have a date of manufacture tag that is cast into the drum. Drums with the cooling ribs are cast iron. Front cast iron drums may also have reinforcing webbing inside at the lug studs.

The steel drums came in several heights, depending on the year and if it had single or dual wheels. The steel drums priduce a nice ring when the flange is bumped on concrete.

The steel drums have the tendency to pit from rust, similar to the rust pitting one may see on anything made of steel. The cast iron drums have the tendency to just rust, but not pit nearly as badly as steel.

I'll post some other AA brake drums photo examples as time permits.