wheels: welding stock budd centers onto modern semi wheels

[pyrodork]

i'm pretty torn about what to do with my wheels when it comes time to needing to buy tires and such. i only have 4 wheels, at least one has rust-through on the tire mating surface, at least one is missing the lock ring, and just everything needs to be redone on all of them.

although i'm keeping my truck ratty, i'm partial to keeping the original style tires. however, it just doesn't seem reasonable with the costs involved. the idea of having to hire out a semi-specific business to put the tires together inside a cage with the right tools... it doesn't sit well with me.

i've heard of people popping out the rivets of the budd centers and welding them into modern semi wheels (without centers). this sounds the most cost-effective in my budget; and empty semi wheels are fairly easy to come by (i found someone selling for $10 each... with tires!). i also know tires are easier to find, and in the long run, cheaper too. something in my head tells me they could probably handle more weight better.

but i'm still hung up on changing the traditional wheel style. i like the thinner wheels. i suppose it would be easy to cut the weld and re-rivet the centers onto the original wheels. i also would like to run duals. it has crossed my mind to maybe make the rears into modern wheels and keep the fronts original.

has anyone on here done this mod before? do you have pictures? what are the advantages/disadvantages?

[steve s.]

I have welded Ford/Budd centers into Chevrolet/Budd rims with good results. I have thought about putting Ford/Budd centers into modern 19.5" tubless rims, like those used on 550 series trucks or UPS vans. Depending on your skill level, it's not a bad job. The 19.5's are much wider than a 6.50 x 20, but they would be ok for single rear wheels. 19.5's are easy to find at the junkyard too. You really can't mix radials and bias ply tires though. I would only put them on my working farm truck which rarely gets out of second gear.

[pyrodork]

i'm looking for something i can drive frequently, if i want to, in all gears. i know i'd need a spacer if i were to run duals, but i know a guy who can make me one; as i know a good welder, too.

i know you can't run bias/radials on the same axle, but would it be that much of a difference to run them on the front only?

[steve s.]

I would definately not mix radials and bias ply tires on any old truck , period. If you decide to keep your bias ply tires on front, then I suggest you find a rim for the back that can also use a bias ply tire. I have no idea what is available , but in the past you could get 17", 18" 19.5" and of course 20" narrow bias ply tires.

[pyrodork]

i'm back to this subject again; as i have gotten two massive (dump truck?!) 425/65r 22.5 wheels/tires on centerless Dayton rims.

i have junk wheels that i can use the centers from, but i'm wondering what the best way to do it would be... the best way to get the rivets off, the best way to weld the centers on straight... i was going to put these on the rear axle in lieu of dually's.

i have yet to measure the specific dimensions to see if the centers would be a direct fit or not, but i don't see why it wouldn't be. if not, they're going to be pretty close.

just looking for advice or a reference. thanks!

[RustydoubleA]

Hi, as they say, there are many ways to skin a cat. Dodge Power wagons have the same small Budd bolt pattern as AA trucks. Many old timer Dodgers have taken the AA wheels and put 7.50s on them and bolt them to the axles. I decided to cut out the 9" diameter or so center part of a military rim with a six bolt pattern and weld in a 9" or so diameter piece with a small 5 bolt pattern. Here are pictures. This is a 1100 X 20 military truck tire and rim. I made the centers partly on a lathe and partly with a rotary indexing head on a drill press. You need large drills. You can see part of the weld in the chipped epoxy coating I used to hide the weld. I could have run another weld and ground it smooth. Then you can save your AA wheels. I do not know what a machine shop would charge you to copy the centers from a stock wheel. You could search out and find some 16" Power Wagon wheels and cut those centers out to weld them into to the larger rims. The tire companies say DO NOT WELD ON A RIM WITH A MOUNTED TIRE, the heat will transfer to the rubber, start a catalyst process and age the tire before it's natural time. Also, be aware that you still have a commercial vehicle (a flatbed with duals), and if stopped and inspected at a truck scale you may be in trouble with modified wheels. Model AA rims, like Power Wagon rims, can have tires safely changed. All rust must be cleaned from the ring as well as the channel in the rim. The ring cannot be bent or out of round. You place the slightly inflated innertube in the tire, place the flat between the tube and the tire, slide it over the rim inserting the valve stem into the rim hole. It is best to block the rim an inch or so above the ground so that the tire can lay below the rim. The bead on top can be pounded down below the channel in the rim. Use soapy water to lube everything up so the tire will seat. Install the ring and edge it around in place, tapping with a hammer making sure that the ring is well seated in the channel. Take five short chains (cut up a tow chain and add hooks), wrap them around the tires and rims through the ventilator holes. Take another old tire and place it on top of this. Attach a locking air chuck to the valve stem. have a 50 ft hose to a Tee, with two valves, one from the air supply and one to the atmosphere. I usually stand around a corner of my shop 50 ft away, apply air to the tire to about 5 psi, let it set for a couple of min deflate the tire with your atmospheric valve, then re-inflate to 5 psi. Inspect the seating of the ring and rim and tire. Bounce it up and down with chains still attached. If seating looks good, then mount it on the rear of the truck. Drive the truck back and forth some and inspect the ring,rim, tire seating. Then attach the chuck and inflate to 15 psi. If everything still looks good then take off the safety chains and drive it around the block and reinspect. It will not hurt the tires at all driving a mile with 15 psi of air in them, the tires will find their seating place. I was a little obsessive compulsive with Power Wagons at one time, I have had 200 of them. (not all at once). I have changed over 300 split rims and never had an accident. THE CHANNELS MUST BE PERFECTLY CLEAN, THE RINGS MUST BE PERFECTLY ROUND AND TRUE. I have had rims with a dent in the edge where the locking channel seats in, I do not use those rims. The most challenging part of split ring rims and old trucks is taking off the 70 year old rotten tires. They are hard as a rock and they have shrunken with age. Swab diesel fuel around both tire beads for a few days. I have used a rotor hammer with a flat blade to break the bead, that is if running the edge of the tire over with a heavy truck fails to work. Sometimes you need a sawzall or sabre saw to cut the tire, hammer and chisel to cut the wire in the bead. The whole job can be dirty, sweaty, and back breaking with rotten tires. I does take time but you will save money. If you have only one truck, and one set of new tires will last you forever, then it may be best to use the tire shop. Steve.

[spectria]

Hi, as they say, there are many ways to skin a cat. Dodge Power wagons have the same small Budd bolt pattern as AA trucks. Many old timer Dodgers have taken the AA wheels and put 7.50s on them and bolt them to the axles. I decided to cut out the 9" diameter or so center part of a military rim with a six bolt pattern and weld in a 9" or so diameter piece with a small 5 bolt pattern. Here are pictures. This is a 1100 X 20 military truck tire and rim. I made the centers partly on a lathe and partly with a rotary indexing head on a drill press. You need large drills. You can see part of the weld in the chipped epoxy coating I used to hide the weld. I could have run another weld and ground it smooth. Then you can save your AA wheels. I do not know what a machine shop would charge you to copy the centers from a stock wheel. You could search out and find some 16" Power Wagon wheels and cut those centers out to weld them into to the larger rims. The tire companies say DO NOT WELD ON A RIM WITH A MOUNTED TIRE, the heat will transfer to the rubber, start a catalyst process and age the tire before it's natural time. Also, be aware that you still have a commercial vehicle (a flatbed with duals), and if stopped and inspected at a truck scale you may be in trouble with modified wheels. Model AA rims, like Power Wagon rims, can have tires safely changed. All rust must be cleaned from the ring as well as the channel in the rim. The ring cannot be bent or out of round. You place the slightly inflated innertube in the tire, place the flat between the tube and the tire, slide it over the rim inserting the valve stem into the rim hole. It is best to block the rim an inch or so above the ground so that the tire can lay below the rim. The bead on top can be pounded down below the channel in the rim. Use soapy water to lube everything up so the tire will seat. Install the ring and edge it around in place, tapping with a hammer making sure that the ring is well seated in the channel. Take five short chains (cut up a tow chain and add hooks), wrap them around the tires and rims through the ventilator holes. Take another old tire and place it on top of this. Attach a locking air chuck to the valve stem. have a 50 ft hose to a Tee, with two valves, one from the air supply and one to the atmosphere. I usually stand around a corner of my shop 50 ft away, apply air to the tire to about 5 psi, let it set for a couple of min deflate the tire with your atmospheric valve, then re-inflate to 5 psi. Inspect the seating of the ring and rim and tire. Bounce it up and down with chains still attached. If seating looks good, then mount it on the rear of the truck. Drive the truck back and forth some and inspect the ring,rim, tire seating. Then attach the chuck and inflate to 15 psi. If everything still looks good then take off the safety chains and drive it around the block and reinspect. It will not hurt the tires at all driving a mile with 15 psi of air in them, the tires will find their seating place. I was a little obsessive compulsive with Power Wagons at one time, I have had 200 of them. (not all at once). I have changed over 300 split rims and never had an accident. THE CHANNELS MUST BE PERFECTLY CLEAN, THE RINGS MUST BE PERFECTLY ROUND AND TRUE. I have had rims with a dent in the edge where the locking channel seats in, I do not use those rims. The most challenging part of split ring rims and old trucks is taking off the 70 year old rotten tires. They are hard as a rock and they have shrunken with age. Swab diesel fuel around both tire beads for a few days. I have used a rotor hammer with a flat blade to break the bead, that is if running the edge of the tire over with a heavy truck fails to work. Sometimes you need a sawzall or sabre saw to cut the tire, hammer and chisel to cut the wire in the bead. The whole job can be dirty, sweaty, and back breaking with rotten tires. I does take time but you will save money. If you have only one truck, and one set of new tires will last you forever, then it may be best to use the tire shop. Steve.

This clear lengthy explanation by Rusty (Steve) should be made a "stickie" on tire and rim handling, imho...

[Bob C]

The youtube video at this link will show why you do not want
to weld on a wheel with a tire mounted even if it's deflated.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBUVzgCHHuA

Bob

[spectria]

The youtube video at this link will show why you do not want
to weld on a wheel with a tire mounted even if it's deflated.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBUVzgCHHuABob

Terrific demonstration of the dangers of heat in a tire...