Starting engine

AA Ford Discussion Group relating to the repair and restoration of your AA Ford.
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John Losch
Posts: 14
Joined: May 7th, 2014, 3:58 pm
Body Type: 82b stake bed
Model Year: 1930
Location: Holliston, MA

Starting engine

Post by John Losch » June 20th, 2014, 5:35 pm

To the list:

Two problems, and one may be solved. In case I am wrong, the "solved problem" first. On now two occasions I have gone somewhere with my 30 AA, 12 volt alternator and 12 volt coil and I have had a hard time starting it. Normally it lights off within seconds of cranking it. Last Sunday I was at a local car show where my truck was parked for three hours. When I tried to start it there was a lot of unproductive cranking. On a "last try" it started, I drove it the six miles home, and all seemed well. It started with no trouble an hour later.

The next day I loaded a year's worth of beer cans in the truck, not all mine, went to the recycle center that turned out to be closed. Bummer! I jumped in the truck, cranked it to no avail, with waiting periods in between. After half an hour of this game the battery died, I was given a prolonged jump start for the "Auto Zone" store next door, but the result was "nada!" Thanks to their generosity.

Ultimately I called triple A, they refused to haul it because it had duals (long gone for the future) and it cost me 125 bucks from "Arts Towing" in Milford, MA. who told AAA that the truck had duals. That it the second time that outfit has screwed me, and I can assure you that it is the last. My new mission is to spread the word.

After a quick charge on the battery the truck started as usual. I think either I had a vapor lock in my Webber carburetor, a bad coil, or a bad contact in the ignition switch.

Subsequent testing suggest that the latter may be the problem. If others get more out of this story, I would like to hear all opinions, including information that might show that I have been totally stupid.

I will put my second question in a second posting.

John Losch

spdway1

Re: Starting engine

Post by spdway1 » June 20th, 2014, 6:29 pm

Timing?
Check the fuel flow?
Vented gas cap?
Don from the 413! 8)

User avatar
1crosscut
Posts: 827
Joined: December 25th, 2010, 7:22 pm
Body Type: 82-A
Model Year: 1929
Location: Lincoln, NE

Re: Starting engine

Post by 1crosscut » June 20th, 2014, 7:21 pm

Next time this happens check to see if you have spark. Pull the coil wire and hold it an 1/8th of an inch or so from one of the head studs while cranking. If you have spark pull one of the plug wires away from a spark plug and see if you get spark to jump to the plug.

Not familiar with the Webber carbs. So don't know how easly these flood.

When you turn on your key keep an eye on the ampmeter to see if the needle moves. If not wiggle the key a bit until it does move. Sometimes the ignition switches get worn just enough that an occasional wiggle of the key is in order to make the intitial circut. Seen this happen quite a few times. With the pop out ignition you only turn your key once and then actually do the starting with your foot. If the key isn't making the circut it can easly be overlooked as a problem in the starting process.

Dave
------------
Dave

User avatar
SteveK535
Posts: 37
Joined: October 14th, 2012, 5:26 pm
Body Type: AA Flatbed Dual Axle
Model Year: 1931
Location: Southeast CT

Re: Starting engine

Post by SteveK535 » June 23rd, 2014, 12:16 pm

If you have an aftermarket ignition switch from Snyder's (I like Snyder's a lot BTW, I just don't like the switch they sell), it may be faulty. Mine hade similar characteristics with times of good spark and times of no spark. I switched back to my original switch that needs a rebuild and all has been well.

ModelAkid
Posts: 478
Joined: June 3rd, 2013, 6:15 pm
Body Type: 186-B stake
Model Year: 1931
Location: SoCal
Contact:

Re: Starting engine

Post by ModelAkid » June 25th, 2014, 12:19 pm

Ignition switch assemblies can short out, whether original or repop. I have not had that problem with properly rebuilt original switch assemblies.
As for the duals: next time you have a problem getting a tow because of duals, just take off the outside rear wheels. You don't even have to jack up the axles, just roll the inside tire on a piece of wood or anything else to raise it up.

RustydoubleA
Posts: 108
Joined: June 18th, 2014, 10:22 pm
Body Type: express
Model Year: 1930
Location: N. Calif.

Re: Starting engine

Post by RustydoubleA » July 15th, 2014, 1:54 pm

Hi, I just finished working on a local Model A member's coupe with a Weber set up. The problem was that the needle valve for the float bowl was not fully seating and the carb would flood a LOT of fuel into the intake manifold with the engine not running. I burnished the needle into to seat and then installed a switch for the fuel pump. Also I told him to be sure and shut the fuel valve off each time he turns the engine off, gravity is still at work. He now starts the car with the fuel pump off and after the engine starts he turns on the switch. He will get a new needle valve for the carb also. The tab on the float where the needle valve rides on also had a wear indentation, which I sanded smooth. Tilotsons also get this same wear spot, as well as older Harley Davidsons. With updraft carbs, you do not get flooding, you do not have fuel pump problems, and the truck stays simple. I put "B" carbs on my cars/trucks and they perform very well, and, without having any downdraft carb problems. Steve.
Attachments
B carb.jpg
B carb.jpg (291.37 KiB) Viewed 4105 times

DAN CHALMERS
Posts: 48
Joined: September 30th, 2008, 5:50 pm
Body Type: 82B
Model Year: 1931
Location: southwest harbor, maine

Re: Starting engine

Post by DAN CHALMERS » July 15th, 2014, 2:43 pm

Is that a B block with a blocked off fuel pump port ???. I'm looking for a BB motor in the northeast region. Any hints? thanks Dan C.

User avatar
blgitn
Posts: 197
Joined: July 6th, 2013, 6:36 am
Body Type: 275-A
Model Year: 1931
Location: West Point, VA 23181

Re: Starting engine

Post by blgitn » July 15th, 2014, 3:41 pm

RustydoubleA wrote:Hi, I just finished working on a local Model A member's coupe with a Weber set up. The problem was that the needle valve for the float bowl was not fully seating and the carb would flood a LOT of fuel into the intake manifold with the engine not running. I burnished the needle into to seat and then installed a switch for the fuel pump. Also I told him to be sure and shut the fuel valve off each time he turns the engine off, gravity is still at work. He now starts the car with the fuel pump off and after the engine starts he turns on the switch. He will get a new needle valve for the carb also. The tab on the float where the needle valve rides on also had a wear indentation, which I sanded smooth. Tilotsons also get this same wear spot, as well as older Harley Davidsons. With updraft carbs, you do not get flooding, you do not have fuel pump problems, and the truck stays simple. I put "B" carbs on my cars/trucks and they perform very well, and, without having any downdraft carb problems. Steve.
Do those side-by-side manifolds work as well as the 'Trojan' lined-up kind?
R/ Roger.

spdway1

Re: Starting engine

Post by spdway1 » July 15th, 2014, 4:29 pm

RustydoubleA wrote:Hi, I just finished working on a local Model A member's coupe with a Weber set up. The problem was that the needle valve for the float bowl was not fully seating and the carb would flood a LOT of fuel into the intake manifold with the engine not running. I burnished the needle into to seat and then installed a switch for the fuel pump. Also I told him to be sure and shut the fuel valve off each time he turns the engine off, gravity is still at work. He now starts the car with the fuel pump off and after the engine starts he turns on the switch. He will get a new needle valve for the carb also. The tab on the float where the needle valve rides on also had a wear indentation, which I sanded smooth. Tilotsons also get this same wear spot, as well as older Harley Davidsons. With updraft carbs, you do not get flooding, you do not have fuel pump problems, and the truck stays simple. I put "B" carbs on my cars/trucks and they perform very well, and, without having any downdraft carb problems. Steve.

I appreciate the work, but with the same area of the cylinder for the intake, I see no practical advantage. The dual carb setups have 1 carb for the 1st and 2nd cylinder, and one carb for the 3rd and 4th. They have an intake that allows more volume. Remember that volume is calculated at 3.14 time the area. So this setup is like a hose with a stricture in it. This setup is like pouring 2 faucets down a drain. It can only take what it can get, and this does not change that.

RustydoubleA
Posts: 108
Joined: June 18th, 2014, 10:22 pm
Body Type: express
Model Year: 1930
Location: N. Calif.

Re: Starting engine

Post by RustydoubleA » July 17th, 2014, 5:09 pm

The inboard carb is a primary carb, the outboard carb is a secondary carb that kicks in only when the primary is 1/2 throttle. There is lost motion built into the secondary linkage. The secondary throttle leverage is twice as fast as the primary carb so they become fully open together. The secondary carb normally does not kick in with normal driving. I have a Snyder's high compression head and cam slightly more radical than a B cam. I have a lightened flywheel. One "B" carb alone really increases the performance as compared to any A carb. The Weber setup will give you quicker acceleration, but for me, the flooding issues, the fuel pump issues, the fuel pump pressure issues, the fuel line plumbing issues with vapor lock take away from the simple reliability of the updraft carb. But then, my friend bought me lunch for fixing his Weber when he thought for sure that the problem was electrical! On the Vortex manifold, you have two carbs in parallel. I would think that one would need two perfectly matched carbs for that set up to work well, and I have yet to find two updraft carbs that acted the same while switching them around on the same engine, but there is a tunnel connecting the two carbs together to equalize the flow, so maybe they would work well. To place two carbs or a downdraft Weber on a stock Model A engine without a head and cam would probably just give problems. Steve.

RustydoubleA
Posts: 108
Joined: June 18th, 2014, 10:22 pm
Body Type: express
Model Year: 1930
Location: N. Calif.

Re: Starting engine

Post by RustydoubleA » July 17th, 2014, 6:22 pm

Hi Dan Chalmers, This is a B engine with a crank having the shrunk and pinned counter weights usually found in truck engines. Ford cheap Charlied the B engines, casting them with thinner decks and thinner water jacket to valve port walls. I also think that he used impure cast iron. Most of these engines have blocks that are cracked in #3 #4 cylinders between the exhaust valve port and the cylinder. You will also find cracks in the valve area floor, between the lifter bosses. Also I had one that blew a hole from the water jacket into the exhaust port. Never buy one unseen. Do not rely on someones word, as usually they do not understand these engines. Always take off the head and inspect the deck for cracks or old repairs. Before spending money on machining, magnaflux AND air pressure check the block. Many have cracks that were welded or pinned, they may leak or not. In a Model A car one can get away with an intermittent crack leak for around town use, but a 3800# truck will not tolerate the slightest cylinder gas to water jacket leak. This particular engine has a Diamond mark on the front of the block near the cam gear. They were cast by a foundary subcontracted by Ford as industrial, farm equip and replacement engines and were made until WWII. They do have thicker decks. I bought this one as a rebuilt short block at a swap meet. No cracks in the deck, but there were welds on the floor of the valve chamber around the lifter bosses. Bored with new pistons, new babbitt, reground crank, new valves and lifters, resurfaced deck and head. No flywheel, covers, pans or oil pump. $2000 and felt I won the lottery. I would not advise anyone to experiment with a "B" engine, unless you have money to burn and the stamina for frustration, or get lucky and find one like I did. The person that I bought it from bought three rebuilt engines from an estate, 2 As and 1 B. He used the one A engine in his car and resold the other two at the swap meet that I attended. Steve.

RustydoubleA
Posts: 108
Joined: June 18th, 2014, 10:22 pm
Body Type: express
Model Year: 1930
Location: N. Calif.

Re: Starting engine

Post by RustydoubleA » July 18th, 2014, 11:59 am

Pictures of several B engines with cracks and B engines with repairs. Steve.
Attachments
B dck.jpg
B dck.jpg (250.93 KiB) Viewed 4000 times
B deck.jpg
B deck.jpg (208.5 KiB) Viewed 4000 times
cracked B block.jpg
cracked B block.jpg (381.24 KiB) Viewed 4000 times

RustydoubleA
Posts: 108
Joined: June 18th, 2014, 10:22 pm
Body Type: express
Model Year: 1930
Location: N. Calif.

Re: Starting engine

Post by RustydoubleA » July 18th, 2014, 12:14 pm

B engine cracks. No more "B"EES for ME'S. It is better to fit an B crank into an A block and plumb the oil system.
Attachments
B block1.jpg
Lots of them had rods go.
B block1.jpg (227.5 KiB) Viewed 3999 times
hotb.jpg
welded and milled, you can see the outline. It still leaks a little, so I may put together a a hill climb car with it.
hotb.jpg (139.02 KiB) Viewed 3999 times

RustydoubleA
Posts: 108
Joined: June 18th, 2014, 10:22 pm
Body Type: express
Model Year: 1930
Location: N. Calif.

Re: Starting engine

Post by RustydoubleA » July 18th, 2014, 12:32 pm

No more "B"ees for Me's. Better to fit a B crank into an A block and plumb the oil system. I bought some wheels from someone in Bakersfield and he had three B engines for sale (3 years ago). I took the heads off to look for cracks and every one had them. He said that he routinely stick welded them up (did not take them apart, did not pre heat heat them, did not valve insert them, did not install cylinder sleeves) and sell them as runners. So "B" ware! Steve.
Attachments
B block1.jpg
B block1.jpg (227.5 KiB) Viewed 3998 times
hotb.jpg
Had it expertly welded up and milled. Started a small leak again. Do I dare try pinning it? Maybe I will put together a light speedster for it.
hotb.jpg (139.02 KiB) Viewed 3998 times

RustydoubleA
Posts: 108
Joined: June 18th, 2014, 10:22 pm
Body Type: express
Model Year: 1930
Location: N. Calif.

Re: Starting engine

Post by RustydoubleA » July 18th, 2014, 12:49 pm

This B engine came out of a nice original barn find 32 roadster having 30,000 original miles that some idiot with lots of money and no cents paid a hot rod shop to install a 350/350 in it. It was repaired when it was fairly new on #2 and #3 exhaust ports. The pistons are standard originals.Steve.
Attachments
broaster.jpg
broaster.jpg (210.18 KiB) Viewed 3997 times

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