starter was cranking strong, now barely at all!

AA Ford Discussion Group relating to the repair and restoration of your AA Ford.
Bob C
Posts: 1442
Joined: April 24th, 2003, 11:50 am
Body Type: Mail truck, Stake tr
Model Year: 1931
Location: SO CAL

Re: starter was cranking strong, now barely at all!

Post by Bob C »

If hitting the starter makes it work I would look for a brush hanging up
or a loose wire or bad connection.

Bob
ModelAkid
Posts: 478
Joined: June 3rd, 2013, 6:15 pm
Body Type: 186-B stake
Model Year: 1931
Location: LHC Arizona & UP Michigan

Re: starter was cranking strong, now barely at all!

Post by ModelAkid »

Put your engine in running condition before bothering with the starter. Time it, check the fuel system, check ignition system, etc. When all is in order you should be able to start it with the hand crank. A couple half turns should do it. If you are not familiar with the proper way to hand crank an engine have someone in your club show you how, otherwise you could get hurt, I'm not kidding.
If the timing is too advanced it could kick the engine backwards, which could damage the starter motor, or hurt you if improperly hand cranking.
It does sound like your starter is defective. Borrow a good one and see how that works. Upon confirmation of a defective starter motor you have 2 choices: repair it or replace it.
The ammeter will not register the current draw from the starter. The starter is connected direct to the battery. Everything else is wired through the ammeter.
Davekpt
Posts: 12
Joined: October 29th, 2012, 11:48 am
Body Type: Express
Model Year: 1929
Location: Kingsport Tenn

Re: starter was cranking strong, now barely at all!

Post by Davekpt »

I would also make sure your starter contacts are in good shape and not pitted. It will work on a bench test with no load but can't pass enough current when trying to start, thus a hissing sound.
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pyrodork
Posts: 166
Joined: February 21st, 2012, 4:10 am
Body Type: AA Stakebed
Model Year: 1930
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: starter was cranking strong, now barely at all!

Post by pyrodork »

the engine was running (alas, backfiring) before i tried timing it... before i knew exactly how to time it. after i adjusted it, i couldn't get it started again. that was two years ago. since then, my access to the truck became extremely limited until this year. now i'm just trying to pick up where i left off.

the 40 degrees the other day was a huge improvement from 0-25 degree weather that it was when i was trying to start it before. i believe the extreme cold was more of the reason behind the trouble cranking. at any rate, here is the video of my struggle (10 mins):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_U9xSNwuYx0

here's the video of my starter bench/floor test. when i tested a more modern starter in the past, the gear popped out while it spun; which this one did not do. i don't know exactly what is normal for a Model A starter bench test, so you can inform me if mine appears to work properly from a functional standpoint. (1 min)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7_OsRFugAo

the brass contact button on the top -is- pitted, but i polished it for a good connection. i didn't realize until the other day that it's replaceable. that's something i would do, but if i can procrastinate on it while i still don't have tires, that would be nice.
i'm completely up for new brushes. i figured the current ones looked fairly good, but perhaps this video will give alternate opinions. if someone thinks the field coils may be an issue, i'd rather spend the money on another used starter.

just for fun, here's the video of my AA's first start. proof that it -did- run!
don't be too hard on me, i'm learning this as i go.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL5w_qiJX-Q
Rumored to be an Early '30 AA...

"Pics or it didn't happen."



-- Scotty "It-Only-Sounds-Like-I-Know-What-I'm-Doing" Petersen, Esquire.
ModelAkid
Posts: 478
Joined: June 3rd, 2013, 6:15 pm
Body Type: 186-B stake
Model Year: 1931
Location: LHC Arizona & UP Michigan

Re: starter was cranking strong, now barely at all!

Post by ModelAkid »

I watched your starter bench test video. The starter seemed to spin as it should.
In the video the gear on the starter was in the position to be engaged with the flywheel, which is where it would be when the starter spins. If you began with that gear back toward the spring, it should move back toward the starter when it spins.
Your original problem may have been a poor connection of the battery cable. Make sure the battery posts and cable connectors are clean & bright & tight. A dirty connection could let a low current pass through but fail when the starter motor demands a lot of amps. Sometimes the bad connection will make a hissing sound when that happens.
Bob C
Posts: 1442
Joined: April 24th, 2003, 11:50 am
Body Type: Mail truck, Stake tr
Model Year: 1931
Location: SO CAL

Re: starter was cranking strong, now barely at all!

Post by Bob C »

OK, here are a few observations I made. 1 It looks like your gas tank is below the carburetor so
you are not getting any gas. It needs to be above the carb like you had in the video when you first
had it running. 2 I see you have new starter mounting bolts, make sure they are not longer than 1".
3 Your trans is in neutral in the first video. 4 Your brake light switch is on the wrong side of the cross
member and the way it is hooked up will turn it off when you put on the brakes.

Bob
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spectria
Posts: 1874
Joined: May 15th, 2008, 9:53 pm
Body Type: Mail Truck, Stakebed
Model Year: 1931
Location: Quincy, Ca.

Re: starter was cranking strong, now barely at all!

Post by spectria »

pyrodork wrote:the engine was running (alas, backfiring) before i tried timing it... before i knew exactly how to time it. after i adjusted it, i couldn't get it started again. that was two years ago. since then, my access to the truck became extremely limited until this year. now i'm just trying to pick up where i left off.

the 40 degrees the other day was a huge improvement from 0-25 degree weather that it was when i was trying to start it before. i believe the extreme cold was more of the reason behind the trouble cranking. at any rate, here is the video of my struggle (10 mins):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_U9xSNwuYx0

here's the video of my starter bench/floor test. when i tested a more modern starter in the past, the gear popped out while it spun; which this one did not do. i don't know exactly what is normal for a Model A starter bench test, so you can inform me if mine appears to work properly from a functional standpoint. (1 min)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7_OsRFugAo

the brass contact button on the top -is- pitted, but i polished it for a good connection. i didn't realize until the other day that it's replaceable. that's something i would do, but if i can procrastinate on it while i still don't have tires, that would be nice.
i'm completely up for new brushes. i figured the current ones looked fairly good, but perhaps this video will give alternate opinions. if someone thinks the field coils may be an issue, i'd rather spend the money on another used starter.

just for fun, here's the video of my AA's first start. proof that it -did- run!
don't be too hard on me, i'm learning this as i go.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL5w_qiJX-Q
I posted my comments on your video's
Dave in Quincy, Ca. I love Pics!!!! Post them All!!! :)
Join the Ford Model AA Truck Club - membership form at http://www.fmaatc.org
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1crosscut
Posts: 877
Joined: December 25th, 2010, 7:22 pm
Body Type: 82-A
Model Year: 1929
Location: Lincoln, NE

Re: starter was cranking strong, now barely at all!

Post by 1crosscut »

Thanks for posting the video.

Some slop in the starter rod is normal.

Clamp a vise grip on the rod just above the starter and activate it by hand. That way you are closer to the engine to better hear for the hiss.

Sounds to me it might be a valve that is not sealing well. Might want to think about pulling the valve cover and taking a look to see if the valves are all moving as they should.

If it is a valve I would guess that it is an intake valve and the hiss is coming out the carburetor.
Try cranking it over by hand with only the number one plug in. If no hiss move the spark plug to cylinder two then three and then finally four to see if you can isolate the hiss to a particular cylinder.

You may have to do a leak down test.

You might consider spaying some water mixed with liquid dish washing soap on the engine to see if any bubbles form at any of the gaskets.

I would be leery of running the engine with the transmission tower off. If a gear slides into the wrong position while the engine is running I would think the possibility of some gear teeth getting broke off would be high.

Have you tried cranking it over with the battery charger attached to see if that gives a faster spin to it?

Does your charger have 6 volt boost?

Having a spark jump when connecting the battery post and cable means there is some kind of a draw on the system.
Place a test light between the battery post and either the positive or negative cable and if there is a power draw your test light will come on.
With the test light lit disconnect one wire at a time until the light goes off. When it does you will know the circuit that is pulling power.

Pull the starter again and really clean the mating surfaces to assure good ground contact from the starter to the engine.

It is normal for only one wheel to turn when they are up in the air. The rear wheels need to be able to turn separately to facilitate going around corners. If you have one wheel on the ground and one in the air the one in the air will turn. Doesn't matter what side is up in the air for it to turn.

When you get to the point of trying to start it again make sure there are no dips in the fuel line leading to the carburetor. I've found that having the fuel run down hill the entire way to the carburetor is a must for it to run right.
------------
Dave
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elfox
Posts: 167
Joined: January 27th, 2011, 8:56 pm
Body Type: 88-A
Model Year: 1929
Location: Port Orchard, WA

Re: starter was cranking strong, now barely at all!

Post by elfox »

I'd pull the plugs and see how it cranks. It should crank really easy. Can you check the voltage on the starter posts (not lugs) while it is cranking?
Dave
Port Orchard, WA
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pyrodork
Posts: 166
Joined: February 21st, 2012, 4:10 am
Body Type: AA Stakebed
Model Year: 1930
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: starter was cranking strong, now barely at all!

Post by pyrodork »

wow! lots of good answers! i'll have to run through those when i have some time. hopefully, this weekend.

i discovered that there was a screw loose for one of the brushes. that may have been causing my "hammertime." but even though i tightened it, in my test tonight there was one time i felt the need to smack it. earlier today, i shined up the mating surface on the starter. i'll clean up, again, the other contact surfaces the next time i can put time into it.

i discovered the hissing sound i'm hearing is coming from the oil filler tube.

in my "first start" video, spectria made a comment that even then, the starter sounded weak. i'm in no position to disprove that... in fact, i kinda felt the same way. i didn't have much for a reference, so i figured it was normal. if this is the case, what kind of remedy am i looking at? it's a given that i should replace the brushes. if i'm doing that, i might as well replace the contact button and bearings, right? clean up the armature with emery paper... beyond that?

i really appreciate all the help!

i'm also considering new plugs. i'm running old champion c4's now. they appear good to me. i don't know if they're supposed to be gapped. if so, what's the measurement?
Rumored to be an Early '30 AA...

"Pics or it didn't happen."



-- Scotty "It-Only-Sounds-Like-I-Know-What-I'm-Doing" Petersen, Esquire.
ModelAkid
Posts: 478
Joined: June 3rd, 2013, 6:15 pm
Body Type: 186-B stake
Model Year: 1931
Location: LHC Arizona & UP Michigan

Re: starter was cranking strong, now barely at all!

Post by ModelAkid »

If you hear a hissing from the oil filler tube it must be cylinder compression leaking out, probably around the piston rings. I wouldn't worry about it unless you do a cylinder compression test and find a bad cylinder.
If your C-4 plugs look good why would you waste money replacing them? Just clean & gap them. The gap is .032-.035. Champion still makes the original Model A 3X spark plugs and you can buy them at NAPA or any other Champion spark plug dealer (i.e., almost any auto parts store). They are almost identical to originals and they are the take-apart kind for cleaning.
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