Babbitt Pouring Fixture?

[AA157'31]

Greetings,
anyone have a "babbitting fixture" for model a ford engines, for sale??
Thanks, sunny

[Chris Haynes]

Babbit tools show up on eBay once in a while. Somebody actually reproduced some a few years aog.

[E.Moore]

What fixture parts are you looking for? Once the babbitt is poured, how will you align bore the rough babbitt to fit your crankshaft? Are you looking for fixtures to pour connecting rods as well? What type of babbitt are you planning to use?

[AA157'31]

babbitt fixture for 4 cyl model a engines, line bore farm out probably, babbitt? melt what I have in mains, then #2 mix or #11 mix? can't recall which is closest to ford original, have heard someone has made ford original babbitt, also heard it's not available?? fill me in?
Thanks, sunny

[E.Moore]

Sunny:
When the babbitt from the old mains & rods is melted out of the caps and block, there is oil, carbon, & combustion by- products...acids, sulphur, etc that is in the old babbitt melt. Unknown babbitt properties like the amount of antimony that is lost each time that babbitt is melted, cause babbitt to become brittle. Brittle babbitt causes cracking at the thrust flanges. Thrust babbitt cracking is also from the result of misalignment of the flywheel housing to the block. Reusing old babbitt often is much harder to machine to a nice mirror surface. There are often dark imperfections in the machined surface with reused babbitt, which will cause abnormal crankshaft wear.

Ford originally used 86% tin, 7% copper & 7% antimony. This mixture was used throughout Model T production. Then when the Model A went into production, Ford began using lead babbitt instead of tin based babbitt. The thought was that the smoother running Model A engine could handle the lead based babbitt, with the larger diameter crankshaft and rod journals.

When the Model A engines went to the dealer for rebabbitt, dealer's often used whatever their local supplier had to offer.

The Tin based babbitt holds up to the pounding of the combustion strokes much better than the lead based babbitt. Lead based babbitt has a tendency to crack at the thrust flanges quicker than the tin based babbitt.

Lead based babbitt will pooch out of the center mains and the rear mains, especially when the crankshaft is warped. Most Model A vibration issues are from crankshaft grinders who do not know how to machine a Model A crankshaft. When the Model A crankshaft is measured on a runout fixture, it is not uncommon to find the center main .030 and up out of round.

What about the thrust journals of the crankshaft? The crankshaft must be aligned perfectly in the block from front to rear to allow the correct alignment of the camshaft gear. Misalignment of the camshaft gear is often the cause of Model A engine power loss, constant overheating and poor running. With the gears cut on a helix, the alignment of the crankshaft is critical in the Model A block. KRW made tools to measure the thrust and align the crankshaft into the block correctly.

When a flywheel housing is installed without checking it for out of lateral alignment, the transmission input shaft will be in a bind in the pilot bearing, causing the end of the crankshaft to flex each revolution, the flexing is transmitted to a warped center main, which in turn beats the center main babbitt out of the cap and block. A cracked flywheel housing can not be made to be in proper alignment with the engine or the transmission. Cracked flywheel housings are common.

When the Model A crankshaft is machined true, and balanced and when the flywheel housing is properly installed and is square to the block and is no more than .006 out of lateral alignment to the transmission housing, the engine runs very smoothly, and lasts a long time, especially when tin based babbitt is used.

ASTM designations are used these days for determining the various type of babbitt mixtures. High speed diesel babbitt often uses nickel, which can be harder to machine. It is very durable and is tin based. Any good tin based babbit should be fine.

Magnolia metal company is known for their lead based babbitt. I do not use any Magnolia babbitt. A common name that used to be used years ago was Government Genuine Babbitt. That was a tin based babbitt, but the name Government Genuine is no longer used with most metal companies.

Do a google search for babbitt suppliers and you will get a listing of metal companies to choose from. I only use the original Model T based formula and have had excellent results. Customers do not come back for babbitt failure problems.

There are several fixture manufactures to choose from. Quik Way made a pouring fixture that had the oil channel made into the mold. Some people like them. I like the KRW fixture the best, as all three bearings in the block can be poured at the same time. You can save money by making your own pouring fixture by taking a steel bar and having a local machine shop cut channels on the bar to accept flat plates that can be fastened to the bar, crossways, with bolts. The bar diameter should be smaller than the standard size Model A crankshaft, (perhaps 1.5" diameter), in order to make up for any misalignment of the bar to the block. The KRW fixture aligned itself to two oil pan bolt holes. This allowed the pouring bar to be square to the block each time it was used. There are large washer type pieces that are allowed to slide on the bar and are moved to the edges of the main bearings to keep the molten babbitt square to the block.

How will the babbitt be kept from running out onto the floor when it is poured? By using a product known as damtite, which is a dark tacky substance which is still found at supply houses that sell to plumbers. Plumbers use it to keep lead from running out of a joint. It is rolled by hand into a length about 4 inches long by about 3/8" diameter and applied to the ends of the main bearing joints, this keeps the babbitt from running out when it is poured. Don't forget to put a small plug of it into the oil passage. If you pour the block and forget to plug up the oil tube, you will find it most difficult to drill out the oil pipes to each of the mains.

Once the mains are machined, how will the oil passage be cut? KRW made a special tool for cutting the oil passage. I know of no modern machine shop that can do an adequate job of hand cutting the oil passage in the babbitt, unless they have a KRW or similar tool. How will the oil well pockets be cut? KRW again.

Pouring the caps is a different matter. The front and center main caps are made of steel and most of the rear main caps are cast iron. There are early rear main caps that are steel. Steel must be prepared with a binder which will allow the babbitt to stick to the steel cap. If the binder (flux) is not used or if it is uneven, the babbitt will pull loose from the steel cap. You may pull your hair out trying to get this perfected.

It is much easier purchasing caps that have already been poured from Ron Miller or one of the Model A suppliers. Be sure to find out what type of babbitt was used in the caps. You may get a straight answer or maybe not. I like knowing that all of my bearings are from the same batch of babbitt, versus not knowing if lead based babbitt was used in the caps, from some place that I had no knowledge of.

Hope you learn how to do it. It is a great deal of fun and satisfaction.

[AA157'31]

Thanks for the thorough treatment, outperforms everything else i've come across will copy this and use. Thanks Again, sunny

[E.Moore]

Sunny, What body style is your 157? I am working on a 1931 School Bus on a 157" chassis. I'm in the process of aligning the flywheel housing to the block. I've put a 1934 Model B crankshaft with the factory forged counterweights, machined to standard Model A main and rod dimensions, into Ford formula tin based babbitt. A NOS raised letter "B" high compression cylinder head is on the engine. With the spark plugs installed, turning it by hand, this thing has some pretty good compression. I'm getting excited about running it. It looks barebones stock with the exception of the raised letter "B".

[AA157'31]

Most of my attention is focused on my 131" 1929 c-cab, pulled the head, and found it in pretty good shape, one of my mentors suggested I put the head back on, and try to fire it up. still must clean up the starter, carb, gen, coil, switch etc., but hope to get it running before 08 is over Thanks, sunny